Poverty in America

As bad as this has been - and most of what I know is anecdotal - I suspect the economic downturn can only make it worse: with banks and other financial companies chasing down debtors, with so many people pushed into financial devastation... you ca just see more relationships falling apart over financial pressures, and that the suffering will be on the backs of kids who don't get support they need. As a feminist man, I think one other thing Diane points out should be restated: this is not simply about "men as bad guys"; this is a broken system with a lot of problems, and the solutions include better enforcement... but also, more humanity.

And, in the end, I think the bitter reality is this (as someone whose Dad could not live up to his financial or parental obligations): it would be nice if we could get parents, even in wrenching breakups, to fulfill obligations to care for and support their kids... but we can't necessarily make that happen. And knowing that, really, is one of those lessons that just forces kids to grow up faster, I suspect.

there child support cases sitting stagnant where the arrears are 200,000 which accrue 900+ dollars a month interest... there are predators everywhere that have the ability to figure out how to get these arrears - of course for a fee of 30% or more of what is collected. 

child support monies are now collected and dispersed via our banking system where there are hidden costs:  use the bank card for more than 3 withdrawals a month and get hit with a banking fee, swipe the card at the gas pump and a 24 hour automatic hold goes on 75 dollars or what ever the balance is in the account.

this is an outrageous system and now the banks are making money off the money that is intended to go to supporting children who are living in single parent households.  not one cent should be taken from child support! 

in california it is funneled through bank of america - oh and if you call customer service more than 1 time a month - well, that is another charge. 

something must be done to take care of the children. 

when attorneys, financial institutions and governmental agencies get a cut first it is no wonder there is trouble educating our youth when they are guaranteed to be the victims of the legal system through no fault of their own.

I'd say more attention needs to be paid to this subject. I don't pretend to be an expert--just someone who is more than dismayed to see families languishing in poverty and homelessness because someone's not playing by the rules.

Seems like a good place for a blue ribbon panel if the panel's findings will lead to a total revamp of an abysmal concept of child support. Jennifer's comments on how the banks and other predators allegedly get their greedy paws on the money gets my blood boiling.

They say that incarcerating a person is the way to make that person pay his/her debt to society for breaking the laws of of society, but how can that person being paying a debt to society if that person is now getting a bed and 3 squares a day along with an education if they so choose to take that opportunity while locked up and their family is getting food stamps, not recieiving the court ordered child support, recieving state health care and facing homelessness. How is that paying a debt, society is then taking care of the offender and his family.

Should society make the offender become financially responsible for the family while incarcerated, by working for a reasonable wage? 85% could go to the family 12% towards the cost of being incarcerated and 3% to an acoount to be given to offender upon release .

Would that not benefit society as well as the offenders family?

Cyndi Hargis

you make a good point.  there is a whole department set up to attract contracts for inmate produced goods and services. (that is a huge state cost as well).  the main attraction for companies is that their costs are substantially reduced by contracting with prison industries. 

why would a company contract with prisons if there is no cost benefit?  (maybe we can come up with solutions here?!)

provinding more jobs for prisons removes these positions from the general public

these earnings should be used to support the inmates children and i actually don't know if they aren't already? 

working in prison is available to those with good behavior.  learning in prison is a positive to society as a whole as we know that rehabilitation leads to better citizens once they are released more don't go back to prison if they have skills, knowledge and support system. 

often times the amount of support court ordered is not even feasible considering what the payor earns, ever earned or potentially can earn.  this drives the person underground and everyone loses.  especially since the amount that goes unpaid is added up and accrues interest so before long the amount owing is so horrific only a 3 figure income earned could make a dent in these debts.

as far as welfare aid and food stamps is concerned, no one can survive on that so it is merely a band aid and also drives folks to earning undisclosed wages and exposes more children to being left at home alone because no one has money to pay for child care.

child support reform must start at the base of the pyramid when it is first calculated, when custody is reviewed and parents need help dispelling hurt and anger so they can make better decisions within the framework of family dissolution.  

Good points! And it underscores what many of us have long known--that the systems (of dealing with people's poverty) often cause more problems than they help. Time to rethink our approach to poverty, and some would say make sure people have what they need in a way that it preserves dignity. What a thought!

The child support system is a poster child for dysfunction! Follow the money--it's not getting to the kids.

I'm braindead and clueless, but I always believe someone out there has some good ideas.

Anyone out there???

looking at the "deterrants" that are imposed on non-payors it is evidant that deterrants do not work - jail, take away drivers license, interest and penalties -all are non-effective.

although, i personally feel more than strongly that someone who doesn't support their children with parenting time and financial support is committing the worst crime, it is time to revamp the system and look for ways to bring the flock into the fold so to speak.

mediating at the beginning of any family court proceeding should be mandatory

mediators must be subjected to review of their recommendations on child custody and visitaton and required to attend ongoing semi-annual learning hours to encourage open-hearted unbiased mediating techniques.

the current disomaster (financial formula) method is extremely cut and dry - not so realistic where a non-working spouse is "attributed" wage earning capabilities especially at this time of the economy.  a reasonable amount of time should be alloted to the non wage earning parent to train, seek and obtain employment - based on the age of the children - part-time work is reasonable when children are school age.  this would guarantee a parent to care for the children. 

it is important that both parents recognize and accept financial responsibility - however primary concern is maintaining stability for children.  the children end up losing 2 parents with divorce quite often due to the financial hardships incurred.

so what to do when a parent does not provide financial support?  mandatory counseling:  group parenting classes and one on one counseling, and a scare them to pay with talking to people who have grown up without parental support beit emotional and financial. 

when an arrears gets to a certain dollar amount (say 1,000 - something that a person can reasonably be expected to borrow, get a second job or get a higher paying job) then the payor must appear with all financial docs, and go through a weekend program to learn about money, family, communication etc.  just like the 1 year drug rehab outpatient program is doing.

learning and accountability are aspects that are missing and we must get away from punishing and losing these parents altogether. 

You would only go to a professional with a good reference.  For those professionals such as lawyers, doctors, ministers, plumbers, psychiatrist, accountants, store owners (get the picture), ask them if they are current in their child support payments.  Tell them you only do business with people who meet their support obligation.  Sure they can lie, but it may make a small difference if enough people begin asking (and the question should embarrass those who have failed to pay support).  If the system isn't working, then perhaps public pressure and loss of business will.

As a parent with three small children I'm so happy I found you-yes, even though I have a Court Order my kids received nothing so many times.(Their father makes six figures,has not seen or contacted them for five years).Receiving the support(well, trying to receive it) seems like it became my "other" job.One of my children has a disability-so yes, I'm definitely busy.

There were many times when I did not know "what to do"-rent,food,bills!!!! All while my ex(who left us after starting making the "good" money and therefore better "party life" was making money,changed job,moved and tried everything possible to avoid the Court Order.The thing is-even though he DID -nothing ever happened to him.

He is a Softare Developer and I had no Internet(could not pay for it) so went to library to try to "hunt" him down,since DCSE told me they are no detectives!!!!

He was in contempt of the Court Order so many times-yet he knows "good luck to me and the kids"

Yes, something is very wrong with this system and it needs to CHANGE!

The best way to get back child support is have the "non-payors" wages attached through the DA and for yourself to pull up all public records to trace financial holdings, business license, DBA (doing business as) ...  even if the non-payor grant deeds property to a new spouse for instance to keep property out of their name this is something that can be proved to "avoid a debt" and is considered fraudulent transfer. 

If all the paper trail is made available to the DA - they do not have the resources to do the work - it can be presented in court and the judge should find this a fraudulent transfer etc... the DA will fill a "review" of financial status and the non-payor will be court ordered to appear and produce documents for a current review of child support.

Problem is if money is hidden from taxes and your income is above board it could reduce the child support order! 

I've seen that after many years they get sloppy and sell property or forget and have a bank account - something to attach. 

Make sure the DA collects off of tax returns, request annual audits of the child support collected, bank and IRS garnishments, make sure to let them know where he works, lives etc anything to make their job easier. 

Do what you do best and raise the kids - home is where the heart is - don't ever let this evil illegal stuff into your heart.

My hunch is that what information the DA in California needs is similar to all states.

All the websites I found were soliciting their own "services" for finders fees !!!   sick.  see link to national womens law center:

http://www.nwlc.org/details.cfm?id=238&section=child+and+family+support

Court ordered child support cases need 30 - 60 -90 day court review to drive home the financial responsibility involved in raising children, keeping the best interests of the children at the forefront. 

I am a father of two. I pay over $900 a month on child support to the two mothers. I was married to both and divorced both. I pay child support, medical care AND I am currently in a payment program to allow my youngest son to have a surgery he desperately needs on his teeth.

After these expenses I make $1200 a month. I have a 4 year degree and my "reported" annual salary is 82,000 a month. Yet I barely afford a studio apartment and cannot afford to have a phone where I can call my children every day. Heaven forbid my car break down. Then I cannot see my children for weeks.

The system is broken. Both moms don't even want the amount they are given. Both are good people that just want me to be the father and to buy his kids clothes and take them to football practice. instead I am broke and cannot afford the gas to take my kids to get ice cream. How is that right? why is it that the mother gets to take them clothes shopping and get toys, while I don't have two pennies to spend on my kids.

How is that right?

Ernest,

You are doing the right thing according to law. It's good to hear from the other side. I've known dads who ended up homeless because of similar plights, not a good option either. I also hear horror stories about parents who don't pay any support.

The bottom line, as far as I can see, is to make sure kids don't have to go without essentials as they grow up. Poverty is a reality that too often affects the custodial parent and children.

I'd be interested in any suggestions you might have from your perspective. Thanks for weighing in on this issue. It's important.

Ernest a couple of ideas if both mothers are not in need of "child support".  You can have the court review that calculation which is always based on both parents earnings.

The courts goal is to make sure the children have as close to the same level of living as before the divorce. 

Financial expenses and needs change after the first court order is set.

As many of us have learned, it is not what we buy for our children it is the time that way we spend time with them.  They are only young for a very short time - financial hardships make it seem like forever - when they look back it will not be the toys they remember but the lady bug houses you build with them out of sticks and leaves, the patience you have teaching them how to dribble a ball, looking for butterflys, drawing pictures, making etches of leaves to give to family on Thanksgiving.  That will be your winnings.

My wages are garnished 47% based on the state mandated amounts.

The system gives no accommodation to special needs or care what happens to the non custodial parents based on their decisions. I have appealed and asked for re-considerations based on my son's medical issues. They simply do not care. All they see is a guy trying to get out of his child support.

Nothing about child care should ever be standard. ESPECIALLY when it comes to child support. Every situation is different. My 2nd ex wife does not even want me to pay child support. She would rather me be able to afford an apartment or house where the kids could stay with me every other weekend. But the courts would rather me begging my parents and friends for money so I can get to my kids on the weekends.

Not to be disrespectful, but I could not disagree with you more Jennifer. BOTH parents should be able to get their kids toys, BOTH parents should be able to take the kids to the water park. Not the one the state gives the kids to by default. Men are automatically dead beat parents and automatically considered the non custodial parent.

The system should accommodate special cases, like my youngest son's dental surgery he needs this year or the $800 glasses he needs. Medical insurance and other ancillary needs take a back seat in importance compared to the money the state makes off my pay check garnishments. Are there dead beat dads out there? of course!!! Are there mothers that take advantage of the system? You betcha!!! Should the rules be made to catch the criminals or to protect the innocent? Right now the innocent are suffering. my kids get less of their father because of the state of Florida. They don't care that I am living in poverty. They do not care that my kid needs major surgery. All they care about is their monthly fee and that they get theirs in court fees and penalties.

Sorry. this is a very tender subject for me (as you can tell).

perhaps it is different in different states.  in my state, there is no monthly fee that is charged to the parents unless there is an arrears amount of child support that the court charges interest on until it is paid.  Which is a practice that does more harm than good.

there are free legal aid groups that support fathers and seek to rectify inequities. 

it is a wrecked system, there are no easy solutions, i lived through it in the worst way, my sympathy is always to the children as all the anger and frustrations over money does trickle down to them and they are the truly innocent.

i don't disagree with you at all and understand not having anything not even a place to live.... i survived by focusing on getting through and taking 100% responsibility for my children in everyway ...

nothing is fair about divorce, money, visitation - it all stinks

MMMMMMMMMM I SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING ITS THE DAD'S Fault he does not pay his child support. Lets look at the facts here.

The court systems will take money from the dad and the state may sit on the money for months before paying said money out. Some state also charge a handing fee for getting the money. (In other words the states makes money from child support)

In my case the fact Alaska did this made me homeless, and that much harder to pay the support.

Then because I was paying my ex wife without sending the money to them they say anything I pay my ex is a gift.

Ok now you tell me what to do.

Hmmm...I think you're right. I've talked to far more moms in a bind because of lack of support than dads. That's purely anecdotal. I haven't found any documentation of how that actually breaks out.

States sitting on the money seems to be a common complaint. James, all that you say is another strong indication that the system is broken.

Unlike other systems, this one directly affects kids. Sure would be nice to get knowledgable folks working on fixing it...setting strong guidelines that make sense, and removing the bureaucratic bungling and greed.

Yeah, I can imagine. Sounds to me like scrapping the "System" and starting afresh would be wise.

Seriously, I'd invite people to list 10 suggestions for improving the way children get supported by their non-custodial parent. Think of the practical considerations, typical barriers, etc. How to get around them? How to streamline? What bumps in the road to watch for?

I'll pass this on to some folks I know who may get the ball rolling....

I for one says the system needs a BIG OVERHAUL.  I have 2 kids (22 and 20).  I have been trying to get child support for them for too long.   I am currently owed approximately $38,000.00.  I live in PA, their dad lives in Florida and has a few more kids that he doesn't support.  I have written to the President of the United States, both past and present.  I have also written to the Gov of Fla, both past and present.  I have even tried to get help from the FBI, due to the Deadbeat Parent Punishment Act of 1998.  NO ONE wants to help.  They say they can't find him, funny I have several times, given them his address, home phone and employer.

Currently he is in jail, due to the fact he violated a restraining order, I have gone for enforcement so many times and they let him out of court paying nothing, and now that he is in jail, they say he won't get out unless he pays something (or should I say his family Pays).........But guess what? he is getting out, the government didn't do as they said the would, SHOCKING HUH............ THere is a lot more to this story but I wanted to make it short........ Point is, something has to be done not in a few months or few years, but NOW........

Linda

Geez, Linda, I wish I could say your story was rare, but we both know it's way too common. The agony, struggles, and frustration you've been through would probably fill a book. We should take all those books that could be written on this issue and throw it....

But, besides that action, I would love to be a part of generating some change on this crucial issue. We need some champions in Congress and in statehouses, probably women, who could develop legislation to change this dysfunctional system.

And maybe some of the high profile mothers who have recently parted from their cads, er, hubbies.

Again, if you owed your ex $38k in child support, I'd bet you'd be busting rocks in the hot FL sun with a mean ol' guard standing nearby.

Hey, PiA readers, any bright ideas or good places to start? We don't want to reinvent the wheel, just want to get it rolling.

Thanks for nudging! And good luck...

Diane

Here are two that are making a difference.  Help them to help you.  

http://www.glennsacks.com/blog/

http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/

We've been fighting my husband's exwife for 11 years, so far.  She was convicted of Larceny (welfare fraud) but we have to pay back the amout she stole.  Then she committed fraud several more times (while she was on probation) causing the child support system to accumulate another $100k in 'child' support after the kids turned 18 and weren't living with or supported by her... that we have to pay.   She claimed that they were living with her and in college. And even though we could prove it wasn't true and all the proof has been sent to the state cse and attempted to be addressed in court, what my husband got was a threat from the judge of being charged with another year of child support if we continued to dispute it.... despite the fact that the exwife had already agreed to a temporary court order finally admitting that the ADULT children were not living with her or in college 10 month earlier.  So still we're being forced to pay for 5 years worth of fraudulenly accumulated monies.  Which in fact should be put toward therapy and tutoring for my (minor) autistic child and our other minor child.  The child support system if a cash cow for states and attorneys.  They encourage dissidence in divorce - it makes them more money. 

Geez! These stories get stranger by the minute. Did anyone say dysfunctional system? And, as usual, greed appears to be the main motivator.

Thanks for sending the info and the links. I have absolutely no idea of how effective the organization is, does anyone have a clue?

The inequities are blatant.  If you have money, a good lawyer, you win what you desire whether it is child custody, more child support etc.  Another variable is as always the temperment of the judge and budget time. 

After years of receiving no child support a womans ex husband forgot to hide assets and she was finally awarded past child support of around $100,000.00.  Again, years later, the ex husband "prduced" documentation that he had overpaid due to the mother having over stated child care expenses for the four children (all chldren were grown the yougest 22).

The father had an attorney, the mother not working and caring for an alzheimer mother did not.  The judge ordered the mother to pay back to the father close to 90,000 - above and beyond the child care amount he claimed to have overpaid. 

Maybe there should be a moratorium.  Can grown children sue for child support that they never received?  It is all really very crazy, costly, the wrong people get richer and actually promote the circus. 

Mediation is the way.  Forensic audits are expensive but would save the government time and money over all.

Jennifer In some states, it is my understasnding that, the kids can in fact sue for the deadbeat for the money.

What states? What's needed to do this?

Sure, the kids can sue.  But Jennifer's example would be a rare exception if true.  When child support is awarded, the state governments garnish the non custodial parent's wages.  If the payments ever get behind (or even if an increase is awarded as retroactive-which happens alot), for instance if they lost their job, the state and federal governments take the non custodial's parent's 401s, IRAs, checking accounts, savings account, stocks, bonds, any real property, income tax refunds, revoke their professional and driver's licenses and they can also take their personal property.  The state has the right to take it all so the idea that people are hiding money is pretty far fetched.  The state has access to everything.  Then if that money isn't enough to pay the arrearages they can put the non custodial parent in jail.  That's what is so ridiculous, they'll put you in jail and keep accruing payments and penalties and interest until someone who cares for this person either pays a large sum of it for them (no bond is given) or they'll let them out on work release so that they can make minimun wage that can be garnished and they don't get a reduction in their obligation because they're considered "under employed".  So by the time a kid gets to sue a parent the only ones awarded is the legal system and their minions who get paid to prosecute, because the non custodial parent likely has nothing.  They may even win the lawsuit but likely get nothing more than their moral ego fed.  You can sue anybody, if you win and they don't have any money you get nothing anyway. 

You are correct that the state has the right to garnish and sieze; however, the DA's office is so behind they do not have the time nor the skilled support staff to prepare the required paperwork to put into action what is needed to collect child support.

People buy and sell properties and grant deed to new spouses, get paid in ways that are not traceable by the IRS and this agency especially.

None of the people owing arrears has been jailed or drivers license suspended in El Dorado County. 

My kids would never sue their father - despite those arrears would buy them each a full ride to  a college education and a shiny new car!  For 3 !

For these reasons and the reasons others have posted is why a true forensic financial review would benefit the state but most importantly the children who do deserve the care that money can buy.  It is a money thing not a lawyer thing.

The DA doesn't do most of it.  The sieze of finances is taken via the state and no court order or DA is needed.  Please understand I speaking from personal experience.  And my husband doesn't owe it and can prove it.  They still managed to take all of the above.  The state gets it done. 

And I second your suggestion of forensic financial review as long as it includes all parties.  Because the custodial parents' activities are never reviewed.  Never asked for proof of anything.  Including their income, their assets, any other forms of income, where they child support money is spent, actual receipts from college enrollments, etc etc.  In many states child support is computed based on the income of both parents and both parents should be held accountable for reporting the truth. 

If they did that in our case maybe they could find the fraud committed by the custodial parent again that that person committed the 3rd 4th or 5th time they did it.  I don't believe that it's because the DA doesn't have time to prosecute her, because they did once already.  It just doesn't add to their bottom line to prosecute her this time.  There's more money in ignoring the truth that was laid out before them.  Not to mention humiliating to the industry to admit they make mistakes.

The children deserve the love and support of both parents.  Not a system that uses them as pawns and exploits the misfortune of their parents broken marriage.

www.dadscorner.net   

These comments all point to a system as broken as, um, the health care system. States differ on their record of collecting. I'm sure fraud and other misdeeds are rampant on both sides. Lawyers can get rich. Lots of money gets lost in the process.

You're right--the kids shouldnt' be the ones that suffer. But they do, and it becomes a quality of life issue for all of us.

Women shouldn't become homeless (with or without their kids) because of lack of due support. Neither should the dads. But they do.